the consumer who is addicted to debt, the stock market which is addicted to debt immediately says, where is all my money? prices correct artificially. >> i think we should just bring one of our credit cards right now. yes, we like our debt and credit cards, but i want to ask you about the economy a bit more. when you talk about interest rates, this tapering doesn't even affect interest rates quite yet, but rates are at zero. when will they actually increase rates, and is america or the world ready for higher interest rates, whether it comes out in 2014 or 2015 or 2016? >> that is an interesting question. if you are a keynesian economist, you say, no. i want the interest rates as low as possible. that is going to allow the government and the fed to make up the gap, the spending gap, until you can acquire enough growth that you begin taking bad assets off the sheet./ if you are an austrian economist, you say no, you got to let rates rise naturally, and companies have to die to make that happen in order to provide success.